Slip vs. Rip - knowing the point of contact and the drive

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Slip vs. Rip - knowing the point of contact and the drive

Postby Blake_T » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:25 pm

been having some conversations with people lately and this topic has come up a lot.

98% of disc golfers have slip on nearly all of their drives (except for on grip locks).

people that max out ~400' still throw this way, with lots of slip.

this is very difficult to convey the concept, so i will list a ton of comparisons to try to help people make sense of it.

in baseball (and golf), there are hitters that SLAP the ball and hitters that DRIVE the ball. a hit that is "slapped" is where the ball bounces off of the bat (or club) after contact. these generally don't have home run power.

a hit that is "driven" is where the bat makes contact with the ball and then the hitter releases his wrists, causing a huge acceleration of the bat (or club) head and the bat head will fling the ball off the bat.

basically, a slap has very little force imparted on it. the bat redirects the ball.
a drive has high levels of force imparted on it. the bat stops the ball and then pushes the ball. this is the same for golf.

other sport motions that are applicable for comparison.
a hockey wrist shot is always a drive.
a hockey slap shot when executed well is a drive but when mis-timed it is a slap.
a novice at ping pong hits with a slap while that chinese guy on espn9 hits with a drive.
shuffleboard is always a drive.
a boxer who hits with a fully extended arm is a slap, a boxer who hits with a bent arm and extends his arm through the punch is a drive.
jai alai is always a drive.
a soccer kick can be either a slap or a drive.

the visual differences between a slap or a drive (minus seeing the result) is minute but if you train yourself to look for it it will become easy to see the differences. a drive will accelerate immediately after the point of contact. a slap will decelerate immediately after the point of contact.

there are technically 2 points of contact in a disc golf throw, but if you miss the first one (as most do), worrying about the second one is a waste of time, so i will focus on the initial point of contact.

the point of contact in a disc golf throw occurs when the disc enters the power zone, which is basically when the disc reaches the right edge of the body. the disc should be close to the body. the wrist is usually curled and the elbow is at its maximum amount of bend here.

this is the point of contact. the arm/disc must accelerate immediately after the point of contact.

the release of the bat head is the tug that follows, uncoiling the elbow and launching the disc. this is how you drive a disc (aka throw with snap).

at least 98% of players peak speed before the point of contact and decelerate out. the result is that the disc slips out on pretty much every throw but they have practiced their timing and positions allowing a slipped throw to come out straight.

this is why you see some guys who peak at 380' straight but can grip lock 450'. when they grip locked it they actually hit it.

this is how i derived the right pec drill... which is basically practicing throws starting just before the point of contact.

Added via edit: The only time when arm speed is of any importance is AFTER the point of contact.
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Re: Slip vs. Rip - knowing the point of contact and the drive

Postby Jsw » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:29 pm

Blake, I wish to don a robe and eat only rice while I study under you, preferably on top of some mysterious mountain - yur thoughts?
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Re: Slip vs. Rip - knowing the point of contact and the drive

Postby uNicedmeMan » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:48 pm

Jsw wrote:Blake, I wish to don a robe and eat only rice while I study under you, preferably on top of some mysterious mountain - yur thoughts?


Room for 3 on this mountain?
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My grip locks go farrrr, seems like I gotta do some more right pec drills.
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Re: Slip vs. Rip - knowing the point of contact and the drive

Postby jubuttib » Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:55 pm

Blake_T wrote:at least 98% of players peak speed before the point of contact and decelerate out. the result is that the disc slips out on pretty much every throw but they have practiced their timing and positions allowing a slipped throw to come out straight.

Me and my friend have just moved to maxing around 380' from maxing around 350'. For me it was using my hips more, for him, who knows. He started disc golf around 2 and a half months ago so his throw is still constantly changing all around (for the better it seems). We can somewhat hit our target when we go at it lightly, but as soon as we start to put power on the throw the discs start to go left and not any longer (rhbh).

Blake_T wrote:this is why you see some guys who peak at 380' straight but can grip lock 450'. when they grip locked it they actually hit it.

My friend had one throw that went around 410' feet when he (after searching for the acceleration point for some time) hit that late acceleration pretty nicely and one grip locked throw that went around 430'. So this thread pretty much solidifies what we reckoned was happening. =)

At this point it feels that when we try to throw hard the disc either slips or we just otherwise mess up the timing. So I take it that what really happens is we try to force the disc too soon and lose any of the late acceleration we might otherwise have. This is something we must shift our focus to.
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Re: Slip vs. Rip - knowing the point of contact and the drive

Postby Blake_T » Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:28 pm

At this point it feels that when we try to throw hard the disc either slips or we just otherwise mess up the timing. So I take it that what really happens is we try to force the disc too soon and lose any of the late acceleration we might otherwise have. This is something we must shift our focus to.


if you throw like most people, when you are throwing hard you are likely reaching peak velocity as the disc passes the chest and slowing down as you enter and progress through the power zone. if this happens the inertia and centrifugal force will pull the disc from your hand.

this is especially noticeable with wider-rimmed discs. i know many people think they can grip wide rims harder since when they are waiving a disc around in their hand a wide rimmed discs feels "more stable," but in motion, you get much much greater leverage on a narrower rim (even if the narrow rimmed discs flops around in your hand when you are waiving it around).

this is also why i say grip strength is the only real strength you need to have to throw far.
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Re: Slip vs. Rip - knowing the point of contact and the drive

Postby jubuttib » Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:42 pm

Blake_T wrote:if you throw like most people, when you are throwing hard you are likely reaching peak velocity as the disc passes the chest and slowing down as you enter and progress through the power zone. if this happens the inertia and centrifugal force will pull the disc from your hand.

Yeah, I actually meant to say that the first time, but it was about 4 AM when I wrote that and just forgot. Definitely seems like what is happening.
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Re: Slip vs. Rip - knowing the point of contact and the drive

Postby sunspot » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:53 pm

Blake_T wrote:
this is especially noticeable with wider-rimmed discs. i know many people think they can grip wide rims harder since when they are waiving a disc around in their hand a wide rimmed discs feels "more stable," but in motion, you get much much greater leverage on a narrower rim (even if the narrow rimmed discs flops around in your hand when you are waiving it around).


What is the ideal/max rim width that most people should throw? I'm assuming it's 1.9. Anything above adds unnecessary weight (using the hammer metaphor) without really helping in increased distance while decreasing speed.



the point of contact in a disc golf throw occurs when the disc enters the power zone, which is basically when the disc reaches the right edge of the body. the disc should be close to the body. the wrist is usually curled and the elbow is at its maximum amount of bend here.

this is the point of contact. the arm/disc must accelerate immediately after the point of contact.


Hopefully this isn't too vague, but while I'm in the power zone transitioning into the apex do I have to rotate my shoulders a little before I fully extend my elbow or should the shoulder stay stationary while I extend my elbow? Looking at Brad's video it seems that there was some rotation of the shoulder before he extended his elbow.

I may be wrong, but it seems that rotating the shoulder before maximum extension of the elbow would maintain the line that you are throwing as you transition from a linear to rotational pull. This would help facilitate more snap while maintaining the correct plane. Am I right in assuming this?
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Re: Slip vs. Rip - knowing the point of contact and the drive

Postby Blake_T » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:57 pm

What is the ideal/max rim width that most people should throw? I'm assuming it's 1.9. Anything above adds unnecessary weight (using the hammer metaphor) without really helping in increased distance.


to get a "tight" grip, the rim must be narrower than the middle segment of your index finger. the narrower the rim, the greater leverage your "in motion" grip will have.
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Re: Slip vs. Rip - knowing the point of contact and the drive

Postby Blake_T » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:57 pm

Hopefully this isn't too vague, but while I'm in the power zone transitioning into the apex do I have to rotate my shoulders a little before I fully extend my elbow or should the shoulder stay stationary while I extend my elbow? Looking at Brad's video it seems that there was some rotation of the shoulder before he extended his elbow.

I may be wrong, but it seems that rotating the shoulder before maximum extension of the elbow would maintain the line that you are throwing as you transition from a linear to rotational pull. This would help facilitate more snap while maintaining the correct plane. Am I right in assuming this?


throw a pen/pencil/stick across the room and let me know what you think.
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Re: Slip vs. Rip - knowing the point of contact and the drive

Postby Parks » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:13 pm

Blake is dead on with this one.

I've done a lot of different drills, and nothing illustrates the shoulder rotation like the pen throw.

If you don't do the shoulders right, the only way to get any accuracy is to let the pen slip out when its heading toward the target. To get the accurate rip, you need to have good shoulder rotation timing.
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Re: Slip vs. Rip - knowing the point of contact and the drive

Postby keltik » Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:13 am

Blake_T wrote:
What is the ideal/max rim width that most people should throw? I'm assuming it's 1.9. Anything above adds unnecessary weight (using the hammer metaphor) without really helping in increased distance.


to get a "tight" grip, the rim must be narrower than the middle segment of your index finger. the narrower the rim, the greater leverage your "in motion" grip will have.


are we talking the inside of the digit or the outside? I have a 5mm (.5cm) variance from inside to outside.
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Re: Slip vs. Rip - knowing the point of contact and the drive

Postby Blake_T » Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:16 am

are we talking the inside of the digit or the outside? I have a 5mm (.5cm) variance from inside to outside.


inside, basically from the center of the joint to the center of the joint. that part of the finger must be able to "clear" the rim width if you want to get a lot of leverage... basically, the pad/tip of the index finger must be able to extend beyond the rim wall and come "back at it" to get maximum strength.
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Re: Slip vs. Rip - knowing the point of contact and the drive

Postby MrScoopa » Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:44 am

guys who throw ~350' drives will have stationary D in the 280-310' range.

guys who throw ~450' drives will have stationary D in the 325-360' range.

there's diminishing returns as longer drives require more oomph on em the farther you try and go.


Hey Blake you posted that in a earlier post. That type of stationary D would be hitting it well, correct?

Also, should I look at that those distances as thrown with slow plastic like a tbird? If I am hitting say that upper stationary range(325-360') with a wraith or r-pro boss could I, with a smooth powerful x-step, actually be hitting close to 450' with those?

I feel like I am hitting the snot out of some plastic, but I am just curious. With a slow x-step it only adds maybe 20 or 30' right now.

Thanks Blake!
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Re: Slip vs. Rip - knowing the point of contact and the drive

Postby black udder » Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:38 am

Another question - I'm guessing that body types, fitness, age, etc. also play a part in the distance you can throw. If that's true, is it possible that somebody is hitting it "okay", but only getting 350'-400'?

Thinking about folks that are older and/or out of shape and thus they don't have the flexibility of some youngsters.

If it's not true, are we basically saying that any reasonably healthy male can throw in the 450'-550' range?

I can't help but think that over 550' is reserved for those in better physical condition, better physical attributes and on the top end of talent pool.
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Re: Slip vs. Rip - knowing the point of contact and the drive

Postby MrScoopa » Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:26 am

Something that I have noticed and brag about :oops: is how I am outperforming fast xstepping in good shape athletes(baseball, soccer) since I have begun training. I can tell by looking at them that they are in better shape than me yet I throw further and more accurately with slower plastic. tbird vs boss.

Now, don't get me wrong I'm young and in decent shape. My problem is I have no problem indulging in the brewsky! They'd beat me in anything that needed endurance, speed, or a fight :lol:
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