The Secret Technique... almost complete

Information, Questions, Discussion about Throwing Mechanics and Technique

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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby Blake_T » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:12 am

We had a breakthrough this past weekend on the shoulder front. One student who was struggling with things for weeks finally got part of it to click by trying to throw as slow as possible. The result was a few roc bombs in the 375' range while throwing at like 10-15% power.

It kind of freaked me out but is really cool at the same time. Hopefully this will progress well. Early attempts to throw harder led to less distance. May have more feedback on it later this week
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby aDave » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:25 am

Not bombing rocs 375, but in the last couple of weeks I've been slowing way way way down and removed the little
'hop' into the second step of the x-step. I'm working on this in response to hitting myself in the left tit with
lighter weight discs, making me feel like I was getting my hips ahead of my arm
When I get it right, the disc to leaps out of my hand with the air displacement sound. D is mostly identical to the old way.
Waaaaaay less effort though.
Accuracy is better too.
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby Indy's broken whip » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:48 am

Blake_T wrote:We had a breakthrough this past weekend on the shoulder front. One student who was struggling with things for weeks finally got part of it to click by trying to throw as slow as possible. The result was a few roc bombs in the 375' range while throwing at like 10-15% power.

It kind of freaked me out but is really cool at the same time. Hopefully this will progress well. Early attempts to throw harder led to less distance. May have more feedback on it later this week



That sounds good, it might help also with all kinds of strong arming issues, as it is easier to spot my useless gritting etc...
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby x-out » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:33 pm

BlakeT

any explanations or tips for someone who is snapping putters & rocs efficiently, but not drivers? putters are hit with near full efficiency and rocs probably in the 70-80% range.

it is almost the opposite of newb snap where they can torque drivers, but not throw putters. this throw is too clean and is lacking torque. it is like the snap is happening to early on the "clock" (e.g. 1 or 2). with the power transferred into putters the drivers should be crushed, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
its a game of mistakes. whoever can make the least amount of mistakes wins.
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby Blake_T » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:46 pm

Try lowering the pull line with drivers. It allows for more leverage to be applied during the hit.
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby x-out » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:59 pm

another clue that might help you.

rollers and anhyzers seem to up the snap efficiency, but flat or hyzers seem to lack the same torque.
its a game of mistakes. whoever can make the least amount of mistakes wins.
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby Agricolae » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:47 am

x-out wrote:another clue that might help you.

rollers and anhyzers seem to up the snap efficiency, but flat or hyzers seem to lack the same torque.


Bingo! I've recently been wondering the same thing. I've presumed I get a better pull on my putters (feeling the weight of the disc) because the deeper rim (kc aviars) allows me to hang on longer and that with drivers it's been a lack of grip strength + timing issue.

But yeah, anhyzers do seem to up my snap (term used loosely in my case) efficiency with drivers, if I remember to tilt my wrist down (handshake position).

This afternoon I'll test pull height on flat throws with Teebirds.
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby Blake_T » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:43 am

anhyzers and rollers are assisted by gravity in establishing the correct pace of the pull.

hyzers and flat throws can have just as much if not more snap, but it's harder to "feel it" vs. a throw that involves a downward motion.
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby x-out » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:49 pm

finally made the leap to the next level. i'm not sure yet how to report the difference and how others can adopt it, but i'm sure i'll have something in the next couple of weeks.

a light went off and i can now apply this to every type of throw (e.g. putting, sidearm, off hand backhand, etc.). now i'm hoping for 550+ before the end of the year.
its a game of mistakes. whoever can make the least amount of mistakes wins.
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby Blake_T » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:05 pm

Nice. If gunning for 550' does that mean you are breaking 500'?
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby x-out » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:31 am

Blake_T wrote:Nice. If gunning for 550' does that mean you are breaking 500'?


with 169g destroyers and 175 wraiths on higher flex lines i'm able to squeak a few out to 500 every now and again. before this i was probably stuck around 450-470. the best part about this new power surge is the fact that i can now take fairway drivers on low lines to hit my previous high line distance driver maxes.

550 is just a number, what i'm really looking for is a near perfect hit and the ability to reach 450ft holes with hyzers. 550 in an open field on crazy lines isn't something i'm working towards, thats just a result of the timing and hit i'm attempting to obtain.

the changes i've made have helped, but i feel ive lost some acceleration that i believe i will gain back with more reps. i also feel like i'm just scratching the surface of an even stronger hammer pound.
its a game of mistakes. whoever can make the least amount of mistakes wins.
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby Wyno » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:19 am

x-out wrote:550 is just a number, what i'm really looking for is a near perfect hit and the ability to reach 450ft holes with hyzers.

don't we all
:-)
Perfectly stated.
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby Blake_T » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:14 am

X-out, have you tried fiddling with dan's rail i posted in the myth of disc pivot thread? That is an easy way to build more angular velocity on the outer edge of the disc.
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby x-out » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:51 am

Blake_T wrote:X-out, have you tried fiddling with dan's rail i posted in the myth of disc pivot thread? That is an easy way to build more angular velocity on the outer edge of the disc.


i have read the thread a few times, but it didn't hit home until i felt it myself. i'm sure everyone could use more leverage, but i don't think that is my problem at the moment. it feels like i've lost some of the acceleration i used to have, and if i were to regain the acceleration i could make another 20+ft jump.

when i'm pulling and hitting properly everything feels very compact and happens much further away from my body than i previously thought was possible. i'm able to get into the power pocket and everything happens with such ease. i think my previous swing was mostly strong arming/"rounding" with a strong half hit, and a very small portion where i was able to leverage the disc. it sounds awful when i write it out like that because it was easy to be accurate and the distance was pretty good, but after i switched it up the new stroke is much more efficient and takes less effort.
its a game of mistakes. whoever can make the least amount of mistakes wins.
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby Mr. Wessels » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:47 pm

I see people haven't responded to this thread since October, so I hope I haven't missed out on my chance to ask questions and get some feedback. I started playing dg about five years ago, but I never got very good at it and kind of gave up and stopped playing for awhile. But now I've returned to the sport and have been doing a lot of practice with these hammer pound drills. The drills themselves have helped me develop what I think is a good feel for the sensation of the weight shift/loading and unloading in the "pocket." I can also get a good, loud clap out of the old towel-snap drill (no disc in hand). However, when I try to turn that hammer-pound/towel-snap motion into an actual throw (out in the practice field), I run into trouble.

I think my main problem is that I don't really have a good sense of how everything is supposed to feel when it all comes together; that, and I've experimented with so many different types of techniques for throwing over the years that my brain has trouble sorting through all the movements and honing in on the good and necessary ones. I'll get what seems like a strong backhand throw from a standstill with one motion and one feel at the hit, but then on the next throw I'll get a similar flight with a throw that executes and even feels totally different. So my brain doesn't know which throw or feeling to pursue. And that's my reason for this post. I want to know what sort of sensation(s) I should pursue with these bh standstill throws.

I think I can narrow down my good throws to two distinct styles--each with their own sensations. This interpretation never occurred to me until one of Blake's quotes in this thread got me thinking that what I am perhaps experiencing is difference between the "Swedish" technique and his "Secret" one.

Here's how I'd describe them:
Style #1: A substantial amount of shoulder rotation and follow through seems necessary for a good throw. I rotate my shoulders to open w/ the disc starting near the right pec and the disc moves forward. My elbow is out in front and stays very bent up to and even through the hit (elbow only opens slightly). The upper arm feels completely rigid in the "pocket," and the elbow feels locked at the hit. The hit feels like this: the grip fingers seem to come off easily except for the index. The index feels lots of pressure from my thumb and even more from the inside of the rim at ~the 5-6 o'clock position of the disc, at which point I am almost fully open—facing my target— and pulling back hard on the disc w/ my upper arm and shoulder, almost like I am trying to pry it away from someone in front of me (but w/o using elbow, because that elbow is bent and locked). It feels like someone is tugging back at the other end. The disc leaves with tons of spin. It feels like it ejected from my thumb/index pinch. At no point in the throw does my wrist feel like it opens much beyond neutral, and it feels like it is either neutral or closed right at the moment of ejection. My thumb snaps down on my index after ejection and my arm/body follows through automatically. If I do this right, it seems almost impossible not to follow through.

Style #2: Shoulder rotation to open seems almost unnecessary; in fact, I seem to get a much better feeling if I keep myself perpendicular to the target and do not open up towards it. My motion is more or less restricted to the movement I learned in the hammer pound and towel snap drills. If I try to take any steps or turn my shoulders much, I automatically seem to revert to some version of Style #1. The hit, which I rarely achieve, feels like this: no distinct pressure point (like the pinch of Style #1), more like a pressure “zone”—vis., pressure of the rim against some or all of my fingers which turns into a feeling of pressure against the base of my thumb/palm. The disc feels like it almost rolls/bounces off this thumb base/palm and my wrist feels like it is open. I do not feel like I am pulling back on anything at all; instead I feel like I am almost pushing it forward, spinning or even “rolling” the edge of the disc with my palm as my wrist is snapping back to closed (which it does automatically). I am not facing my target when the disc leaves; as a result, it seems like the disc leaves sideways from my right side. The disc leaves with lots of spin, but apparently not much translational velocity (I think I’m doing something wrong?). None of my body seems to have any tendency to follow through (clockwise) after the disc leaves. My elbow does not keep opening, in fact, it closes (along w/ the wrist). My right forearm and wrist tend to want to finish pointing up and facing me, and my weight tends to want to finish back (over my left, instead of right leg).

Am I on the right track with any of my descriptions of the sensations at the hit and the motions leading to them? Am I correct in thinking Style #1 is probably the Swedish variation and Style #2 is more like Blake’s Secret technique? Which of the styles should I try to develop and which sensations should I pursue in practice? I’m thinking this Secret technique seems like the preferable option; but I have a lot of trouble actually getting throws from it. Often the disc leaves at an extreme angle to the right of my target line, or else it doesn’t spin much and goes like 30’. It’s not clear to me exactly where/how to apply pressure to the disc at the moment when it is fully loaded (when the timing is right)—and neither the towel drill nor hammer pound drill can teach this because those drills do not involve a disc actually leaving the hand. Also, I have no idea how to turn it into an actual drive because—as I mentioned—if I try to open myself up to the target and follow through at all, my throw morphs into Style #1. In Style #2, I can’t follow through. In Style #1, I can’t not follow through!

Thanks in advance. Sorry for the essay.
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