David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

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David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby TheDiscGolfKidd » Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:43 am

Hello everyone my sole purpose of creating this account the other day was to try to learn more about the game of disc golf and ways to improve my distance and game. I have been for along time fan of David wiggins jr. After falling in love with that drive and technique the sound of that rip .. Anyhow I was just wanted to see how many of you guys feel David wiggins should hold a clinic or something it would be great to know how in the world he manages to do what he does!
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby JR » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:00 am

Welcome. He has registered here. I wouldn't mind picking his and his fathers (coaches him and is a doctor) brains. Too bad i'm on the other side of the Atlantic. Depending on where you are now with your distance we may be able to help you here too. Feel free to read and ask in the technique section and look at the video critiques and maybe post your own video when you think it is appropriate.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby keltik » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:29 am

welcome. I had the good fortune to meet Wiggins last month at a charity tournament. he put on a demonstration and a mini clinic in between rounds. Brother Dave and I had a chance to speak with him separately from this.

the good: he is a personable guy and spoke with us freely about throwing. He showed us his grip (it's not what you would expect). and the sound of his throws are different (almost like a micro sonic boom.)

the bad: he's not a good instructor. but hey he's only a senior in high school. I'm not sure he knows enough about throwing mechanics to personally express it to an audience. and he generally won't tell you anything you can't read on here. I think in a few more years he might be able to teach this but right now he is a doer and not a teacher.

It may be better for someone like JR to make a good slow motion multi angle video of Wiggins throwing and then let him, Blake, and other technique super nerds (myself included) break down what is happening in his throw. and even this is a remote possibility since he is a high school student and has other things on his mind (he said as much to me and Bro D.)
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby uNicedmeMan » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:20 pm

keltik wrote:He showed us his grip (it's not what you would expect).


Elaborate plz!!!
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby keltik » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:31 pm

I would need to use pictures. I'll do it this evening if I have time.

I'll try to describe it verbally if I can. He uses a three finger grip but the index finger is the finger that is not on the rim. His hand is also covering most of the flight plate and the thumb is almost mashing on the center. He uses a similar grip for all shots and all discs. Both Brother Dave and I were intrigued by how far towards the center his thumb was. I was quite shocked he didn't use his index finger.

A funny note for when he was doing the demonstration he ran out of his bomb drivers and some other people were tossing him discs. One time Wiggins looked at the disc and said "what does this do?" and the response was: "for you, it's understable." then KA-WHOOOM, he threw it like 500'. He's not that big of a guy (5'11"-6' 165lbs maybe) and his hands aren't monster huge or anything but it is amazing to watch him throw. he just does it. everything you are supposed to do right in a throw he just does it.

EDIT: I tried his grip out on a few field throws. It added a load of torque and my arm felt looser and faster. but it felt like I had zero control or timing. but hey I'm just a hack fartin' around in a field.
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby uNicedmeMan » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:47 pm

Interesting indeed. I think I get the gist of that but pics my firm it up.
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby JR » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:49 pm

That is an interesting grip indeed. Remember the Innova video where Dave Dunipace tells that because the thumb is the only finger on top of the disc the grip strength is dictated by that single finger opposing the multiple fingers under the disc? This grip adds a lot of grip on top of the disc. Since grip strength puts a limit to power transfer to the disc it also sets the maximum available distance.

The further toward the center of the disc the thumb is the tighter the forearm muscles get. Slowing down the arm pull and making it harder the push the front of the disc down with the thumb. The larger the hand the closer it gets toward the center of the disc without moving the thumb too far off of resting position which tenses up the forearm muscles. I'm in pain now from trying to stretch the thumb toward the center both in a regular way and Jenkins thumb orientation. So i need to keep the thumb closer to the front of the disc instead of center and that reduces the grip one can have and the time that the thumb touches the flight plate. D'oh! Nothing new for my arm because this was the first year i could throw with the Jenkins grip.

Maybe with practice i could move the thumb from the front toward the center. I need to do that with regular grips too in winter time to somewhat compensate for the slickness of even rubber based discs in well below freezing temperatures. And it helps a lot so to me there is no question that the farther toward the center you can put the thumb the more torque you can create. I am the jedi master of slipped throws in the winter but who isn't in the temperatures we get here?

I don't know where he puts his index finger and how he orients it and how he uses it. I tried a few positions and curling the index finger on top of the disc puts the index finger near or on the front edge of the disc allowing that finger to push down the front of the disc. Tasty. An added bonus is that the index finger is positioned so that it won't tense up the forearm muscles sacrificing arm speed.

I don't know where the fingers are under the disc i tried to put the outermost joint of the fingers on the bottom of the disc. To the rim to wing corner. That is the longest arc you can create with the disc pivot because the index finger is the longest finger. And the rip finger for this grip. Pretty ingenious if you ask me. I've thrown with two and three finger power grips with the same positioning and while it makes holding on harder it also adds 5-6 MPH exit speed (radar measured) and some distance i think around 30' on average to my max D disc drives.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby mojorisin35 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:07 pm

Pics please...
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby TheDiscGolfKidd » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:16 am

I mean that was one thing I didn't forget was he is still young so explaining things might be a little more difficult for him , but I myself personally threw for the first time in a year.. Yesterday. The funny thing is a year ago I could throw a disc as far as 450 - 475 I remember being on a football field crushing it past.. But.. Yesterday haha.. Long story.. I'd say no more then 250... Haha.
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby keltik » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:59 pm

Okay here are the pics:

Image

Image

He said he uses this grip for all shots. He also mentioned that when he set the under 13 and under 10 records he only gripped with the middle and ring fingers.

It kinda looks like a control grip as depicted in Blake_T's article:

Image
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby iacas » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:18 pm

JR wrote:This grip adds a lot of grip on top of the disc. Since grip strength puts a limit to power transfer to the disc it also sets the maximum available distance.

I don't think that's true. Pushing down with your thumb likely has very little to do with the distance you can throw a disc, and I believe the primary purpose of the thumb being on top of the grip is simply to help control the angle of the flight plate and thus the disc. I bet you could throw a disc as far with just enough thumb pressure to prevent the disc from "popping up" off your pivot finger(s) as you can with hard thumb pressure. You have to have enough pressure to keep the disc from popping "up" off of your fingers too early and instead ripping out of them, but so long as you achieve that minimum you should be fine and the disc will come off within a very small window of time when you're spiking past your grip delivery pressure threshold.

I'm talking too about people who have a good snap and good pivot, because as I illustrated in my charts about linear-arc delivery lines the pressure spikes quickly. Most people are more rounded and don't have a sudden spike in delivery pressure forces and thus get a mix of slips and grip-locks if they DON'T let the disc "pop up" off their pivot fingers at the right time.

JR wrote:The further toward the center of the disc the thumb is the tighter the forearm muscles get.

The motion of the thumb in that plane is not controlled by muscles in the forearm (the thenar group controls that IIRC). If you lack muscle control then I can see how moving the thumb might activate muscles in your forearm, but that's simply poor muscle control, not a biomechanical fact. PGA Tour pros grip the club quite firmly (though it feels like a 3/10 to them) while retaining loose wrists and forearms. The poor golfer grips too loose with everything or too firm with everything - they haven't mastered the firm GRIP with the relaxed wrist and forearm.

JR wrote:Slowing down the arm pull and making it harder the push the front of the disc down with the thumb.

I do not believe the front of the disc can be "pushed down" with the thumb while the disc still rests on your other finger(s). Your other fingers are against the flight plate and lip/rim. Thumb pressure can stop the disc from popping up off your pivot fingers prematurely (again, controlling the angle of the disc in that manner), but it does not literally push the front or nose of the disc down. If anything, pushing the thumb out towards the center of the disc and applying more downward pressure lowers the back of the disc, not the front of the disc.

keltik wrote:Image

So he's simply shifted the pivot point of the disc to his ring finger instead of his index finger. I can see how that would work for someone. He can use the pressure point in the index finger to help him dial in nose angle at delivery and simply have the disc pivot around his middle finger. It makes sense, then, if you're going to prevent the disc from "popping" off your finger (I am making that term up but I prefer it over "slipping" at this moment because it implies an upward move more than one that simply rips out horizontally) that you'd move your thumb towards the center of the disc as it would rotate to be more inline with the middle finger. Your thumb makes an arc, and the farther towards the flight plate the more forward (i.e. towards or in front of the index finger) it can be, and the more towards the center of the disc the farther back it can be.

----------------------------

The problem with player clinics are that players are often the worst instructors because they don't understand that "feel ain't real." I say that a lot on my golf forum but it's true of almost any activity or athletic move. You might FEEL like you're doing something, but oftentimes you're not, so instructors who teach a "feel" as a way of making the mechanics work are going about things bass ackwards - they should be teaching the mechanics properly and determining the feel that produces the best mechanics for that particular student.

We've had students that feel that they have to make 1/2 a backswing with their head moving forward 12 inches just to get their heads to remain still and make a shoulder turn that only goes to 100° instead of 130°.

Players often make lousy instructors. Oftentimes they don't even know HOW they do what they do - they just look out that way and throw the disc and it goes there (and far). Their system of feels is different, their background is different, their faults and fixes are different, and so on.

That said, a clinic tends to cost next to nothing, and even if you can pick up one tiny thing it's often worthwhile, and I'd go to as many as I could within a reasonable radius. Ask pointed questions about how they practice, what their mental routine or outlook is like, etc.
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby mojorisin35 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:37 pm

Thank you! I will give it a go and report back
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby keltik » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:49 pm

what were your results mojo?
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby mojorisin35 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:53 pm

Currently snowing...love Canada eh! I will report at my first opportunity to throw and not lose my disc under the snow.
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby keltik » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:57 pm

oh shit I forgot you were in Canadia. I guess we won't know until May or so...lulz
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