Hitting the reset button

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Hitting the reset button

Postby BrotherDave » Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:31 pm

So, 5 years in and I've plateaued hard at 330. Sometimes 10-20' more but almost never more than 10' less. I've poured over hammer pounds and rails and water bottle drills galore. Regardless of what I throw, I can only get x amount of power/speed on it and that's it. I don't know what exactly is limiting me because I get lots of compliments on my form, particularly how smooth it looks. And I literally can't strong arm or my forearm will scream at me in the form of tendinitis so I have to be getting some body into the throw. It's like I'm driving a Ferrari kit car with a Toyota 4-cylinder under the hood. I suspect my short fingers and/or weak grip plays a big factor.

So what would be the best way of just starting over for someone that knows what he should be doing and gets glimpses from time to time but just can't get it all together? I just want to start over and burn perfect mechanics into my brain/body. I'm not even particularly obsessed with getting more distance, I just want to feel constantly in control of my throws and be able to line shape like a mofo. But I don't think I'll be able to do that to my satisfaction until I can feel the hit on command.

Thanks for reading and more thanks if you have any advice. I wish I could load a vid of myself for you guys but I don't have the technology.
Last edited by BrotherDave on Wed May 15, 2013 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hitting the reset button

Postby Flipflat » Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:43 pm

Book a flight to Minnesota and hang with blake.
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Re: Hitting the reset button

Postby keltik » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:04 am

Dave there are a bunch of soccer fields behind my house. You could come up and I could show you some things. I'm really only a half hitter but I want to see if I can teach someone.
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Re: Hitting the reset button

Postby JR » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:41 am

Live instruction and feedback by an outside viewer should help a ton. Tendonitis ain't a bitch it's a whore from hell and you might have subconscious opening of the fingers for killed snap going on. It is automated and the only thing against it is practice. Weight lifting and tendon strengthening practice more than throwing and pinching hard. It is a long road but your propensity for getting tendonitis will go down or away with time. Starting out slowly is the problem. Nobody knows how much your body can handle and the shitty deal about it is that you may not feel anything odd when practicing and the next day swelling will make you hurt like hell. It took me a surgery and around 7-8 years to put most problems behind me.

If grip is not the issue (try moving the thumb into Jenkins orientation with the base of the thumb lying on top of the flight plate and in quarter inch increments toward the center of the disc to eliminate some slipping) reach back distance and timing and possibly a lack of final step leg bracing once the heel touches the ground are common problems. Do you turn the back of the head, back and heels at the target in the x step? You should for power generation. For the same reason some leg speed up to running may help some and for even more leg to distance power boosting try a double pivot by running in a curve starting from left rear of the tee x stepping to the center and planting to the right of the x step planting position. Not the easiest and most slip proof thus consistent controllable shot but perfectly viable for open field good weather good tee pad D. Try to get the elbow closer to the target than the right side before starting straightening the elbow.

More distance with a non consistency compromising form means that you don't need to pull so hard meaning you can throw more accurately and consistently with one exception. Those that learn to aim with the weight of the rim against the fingers in the arm acceleration and direction change get a huge accuracy boost from that. And 330' seems to be the low limit for getting enough physical feedback to maybe feel it. Once you recognize the feel aiming with the weight becomes much easier.

Solo training in front of a large mirror may help to spot form errors. If you don't own one and none of your friends do some gyms and dance studios should have them.

My signature describes control throws with sacrificed power generation but added reliability across all weather conditions vs more power generating forms.

Breaking habits and automating a new form takes a long long while if it is even achievable with the amount of training time you can put in. Field practice or throwing into a tarp gives lots of reps soon.

So many mobile phones have video cameras even in cheap models that it should not be hard to get a friend to film you throw. I bet it would not be too hard to get someone in your club or the courses you play in film a throw or two. A video is better than no video for diagnosing.

Have fun above all hunting for better form and more power. It is in the legs and the core. Many (most?) don't twist their hips to the right, turn their shoulders even farther and whip their arm around from the shoulder socket. Getting any one of those to happen is easier if you brace the right leg in the plant step. Many prevent themselves from achieving those goals by spinning out=rotating the body freely around too early pivoting on the heel.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hitting the reset button

Postby douglas78 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:11 am

word for word, the OP's post is my exact dilemma! :?
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Re: Hitting the reset button

Postby BrotherDave » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:05 pm

Flipflat wrote:Book a flight to Minnesota and hang with blake.

I don't have to eat lutefisk or anything, do I? :?

keltik wrote:Dave there are a bunch of soccer fields behind my house. You could come up and I could show you some things. I'm really only a half hitter but I want to see if I can teach someone.

Sweet. I have a nice big hay field by me but a nice, flat soccer field sounds better and I'd love to have someone eyeball me, even if it's a burly bearded man. :wtf:

douglas78 wrote:word for word, the OP's post is my exact dilemma! :?

Yeah, I'm sure there are legions of us which is why I started the thread instead of trying to make sense of the overwhelming mountain of threads. A streamlined, "refresher course" for hacks like me that haven't quite figured it out yet would be really helpful I think.
Thanks for big write-up, JR. Really appreciate it.
JR wrote:Live instruction and feedback by an outside viewer should help a ton. Tendonitis ain't a bitch it's a whore from hell and you might have subconscious opening of the fingers for killed snap going on.

There may be truth to this. I have a habit that creeps in from time to time of loosening my grip as I come into the power pocket.
It is automated and the only thing against it is practice. Weight lifting and tendon strengthening practice more than throwing and pinching hard. It is a long road but your propensity for getting tendonitis will go down or away with time. Starting out slowly is the problem. Nobody knows how much your body can handle and the shitty deal about it is that you may not feel anything odd when practicing and the next day swelling will make you hurt like hell. It took me a surgery and around 7-8 years to put most problems behind me.

I know what you mean minus the surgery part. I'm slowly but surely improving it with some light weight lifting but it's slow going.
If grip is not the issue (try moving the thumb into Jenkins orientation with the base of the thumb lying on top of the flight plate and in quarter inch increments toward the center of the disc to eliminate some slipping) reach back distance and timing and possibly a lack of final step leg bracing once the heel touches the ground are common problems.

Is there a pic of this Jenkins orientation? I think I know what you mean but I want to be sure. My reach back distance could probably use improving, I don't reach back terribly far b/c I'm often focusing on keeping my weight forward. That last one I have no clue. I have a tendency to keep my plant leg too straight and I've read that you want your knees bent a little if that's true.

Do you turn the back of the head, back and heels at the target in the x step? You should for power generation. For the same reason some leg speed up to running may help some and for even more leg to distance power boosting try a double pivot by running in a curve starting from left rear of the tee x stepping to the center and planting to the right of the x step planting position. Not the easiest and most slip proof thus consistent controllable shot but perfectly viable for open field good weather good tee pad D. Try to get the elbow closer to the target than the right side before starting straightening the elbow.
Definite yes to the first question. The double pivot sounds interesting but I feel like I should concentrate on hitting consistency (or at all) before I go crazy with x steps. I have a very slow, deliberate run-up (walk-up really) b/c the more I charge up my x-step, the more it seems like I lose that "arm feels like a whip" sensation.

More distance with a non consistency compromising form means that you don't need to pull so hard meaning you can throw more accurately and consistently with one exception. Those that learn to aim with the weight of the rim against the fingers in the arm acceleration and direction change get a huge accuracy boost from that. And 330' seems to be the low limit for getting enough physical feedback to maybe feel it. Once you recognize the feel aiming with the weight becomes much easier.

Not sure I'm following you here.

Have fun above all hunting for better form and more power. It is in the legs and the core. Many (most?) don't twist their hips to the right, turn their shoulders even farther and whip their arm around from the shoulder socket. Getting any one of those to happen is easier if you brace the right leg in the plant step. Many prevent themselves from achieving those goals by spinning out=rotating the body freely around too early pivoting on the heel.

Getting my legs and core into it more is probably an area I can improve on. Any thread handy on this bracing the right leg part? I know what you mean but putting the theory into application has eluded me for a while now.
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Re: Hitting the reset button

Postby NoLifeLeft » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:52 am

The big difference for me on the days that I get good distance (400'+) versus my off days (350'-ish) is always in my shoulder pause as the disc passes my chest and the closeness to my right pec. If I'm coming up short, I know I'm not getting the disc near enough to my chest. I actually had to take some time off of the constant practice to relax and stop trying to rush the pull. Throwing with a relaxed arm is so counterintuitive.

I highly recommend videoing yourself.
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Re: Hitting the reset button

Postby JR » Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:50 am

People with huge biceps and pecs can keep their muscles loose by not pulling close to the right pec but close to the left pec and still get a good snap not optimal but good enough for beyond 600'. Power is nice to have but those guys have good form too. For the rest pulling close to the right pec ain't a bad idea. I don't have muscle power to throw a 3 pound weight plate purely holding from the center hole if i don't get the elbow forward. If i do then there is more power created.

Bracing recipe. The right leg should be loose when planting when the toe touches the ground. Staying loose you should roll on the shoe sole to side corner to the heel and raise the ball of the foot high at which time you clam the shit ton with all the leg muscles trying to stop in place. After that comes the pause during which you move the arm to the right pec position and start the elbow chop. During which at some point (see what works best for you) you should loosen up the right leg to allow a free unopposed heel pivot.

Double pivoting compromises consistency so it should be reserved for non slippery ground and when you need all the power to shave off a stroke on a fairly open area before you get familiar with it. Sure it has more danger components but with practice one can learn anything. You are right in that this is an advanced form that is best left until after you've mastered x steps then run up + x step. Preferably as outlined in my signature first and after that moving from right to left then right to center to right in a double pivot.

I lost almost a year of throwing with tendonitis problems reappearing after the surgery from working out too hard. Without knowing how much is too much because the warning signs of doing too much are too mild to notice. And from work and competition swimming my expectation of getting a good deal of pain was there and compared to what i'm used to taking all the time the signals of overdoing rehab for tendonitis are way weaker. I was way too macho for my own good. In others my sissy body ain't the half the man my mind is. That puny fucker :evil:

The Jenkinses have the rest of the hand and the thumb parallel with the disc but the outer section of the thumb points down in 70-80 degree angle and at times 90 but less is more for grip power for my injured arm YMMV.

It is quite common to not be able to whip hard with the arm after changing something in the form because the limited brain processing times gets easily eaten up by previous movements. Hence the need to automate movements to not tax the brain so that you can whip hard.

The more powerful the throw the harder the rim of the disc presses against the fingers and the easier it is to feel the back to front movement of the disc. Which pointed at the target will help tremendously with aiming. The sensitivity of the fingers and how much brain processing power is left to notice physical feedback determines how hard you need to throw to be able to detect the weight of the disc. The first time i sensed in was at 300' rarely. 330' made noticing things easier and my form had stayed the same for a while then so i had automation going for me. Really 350' and past makes noticing the weight much easier and 400' is pretty easy to feel the weight with.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hitting the reset button

Postby keltik » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:35 am

Image

Editorial Note: I think Jenkins has hitchhikers thumb genetic variation so his thumb placement may not be suitable for you if you have straight thumb.
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Re: Hitting the reset button

Postby JR » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:07 am

That is a mild angle indeed compared to the steepest angles he's been caught in pictures/video with.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hitting the reset button

Postby Mark Ellis » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:29 am

BrotherDave wrote:So, 5 years in and I've plateaued hard at 330. Sometimes 10-20' more but almost never more than 10' less. I've poured over hammer pounds and rails and water bottle drills galore. Regardless of what I throw, I can only get x amount of power/speed on it and that's it. I don't know what exactly is limiting me because I get lots of complements on my form, particularly how smooth it looks. And I literally can't strong arm or my forearm will scream at me in the form of tendinitis so I have to be getting some body into the throw. It's like I'm driving a Ferrari kit car with a Toyota 4-cylinder under the hood. I suspect my short fingers and/or weak grip plays a big factor.

So what would be the best way of just starting over for someone that knows what he should be doing and gets glimpses from time to time but just can't get it all together? I just want to start over and burn perfect mechanics into my brain/body. I'm not even particularly obsessed with getting more distance, I just want to feel constantly in control of my throws and be able to line shape like a mofo. But I don't think I'll be able to do that to my satisfaction until I can feel the hit on command.

Thanks for reading and more thanks if you have any advice. I wish I could load a vid of myself for you guys but I don't have the technology.


If you really want to start over switch to the opposite hand.

Everybody plateaus. It is the nature of the beast. The easiest way to improve your scoring (5 years in and having already attained smoothness) is better putting and accuracy, not throwing 50 feet farther. That RESET BUTTON represents a radical change in form and ASSURES you will lose accuracy and consistency until one day, maybe, your new form becomes ingrained enough to bring you back up to where you are today and then, maybe, maybe, even an overall improvement.

If you spend the same time and effort in improving your putting and accuracy that you are planning to spend improving power your game will break its plateau and players will say, "Damn, Brother Dave, you beat me again." But if you would rather hear, "Damn, Brother Dave, you are driving farther than ever. You owe me 5 bucks.", then hit that reset button.

Players who throw smooth seldom hurt themselves and often throw good shots. This is what you want to abandon?
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Re: Hitting the reset button

Postby BrotherDave » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:19 pm

Mark Ellis wrote:If you really want to start over switch to the opposite hand.

Everybody plateaus. It is the nature of the beast. The easiest way to improve your scoring (5 years in and having already attained smoothness) is better putting and accuracy, not throwing 50 feet farther. That RESET BUTTON represents a radical change in form and ASSURES you will lose accuracy and consistency until one day, maybe, your new form becomes ingrained enough to bring you back up to where you are today and then, maybe, maybe, even an overall improvement.

If you spend the same time and effort in improving your putting and accuracy that you are planning to spend improving power your game will break its plateau and players will say, "Damn, Brother Dave, you beat me again." But if you would rather hear, "Damn, Brother Dave, you are driving farther than ever. You owe me 5 bucks.", then hit that reset button.

Players who throw smooth seldom hurt themselves and often throw good shots. This is what you want to abandon?

I'm fine with putting. Like I said, I don't necessarily want to throw farther, just more accurately. I want to be able to hit gaps in the fairway from 75'-200' much more consistently. I can practice putting until my putter melts, it's not gonna magically improve my ability to avoid those errant throws that smack trees stupidly off the fairway.
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Re: Hitting the reset button

Postby Mark Ellis » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:44 am

BrotherDave wrote:
Mark Ellis wrote:If you really want to start over switch to the opposite hand.

Everybody plateaus. It is the nature of the beast. The easiest way to improve your scoring (5 years in and having already attained smoothness) is better putting and accuracy, not throwing 50 feet farther. That RESET BUTTON represents a radical change in form and ASSURES you will lose accuracy and consistency until one day, maybe, your new form becomes ingrained enough to bring you back up to where you are today and then, maybe, maybe, even an overall improvement.

If you spend the same time and effort in improving your putting and accuracy that you are planning to spend improving power your game will break its plateau and players will say, "Damn, Brother Dave, you beat me again." But if you would rather hear, "Damn, Brother Dave, you are driving farther than ever. You owe me 5 bucks.", then hit that reset button.

Players who throw smooth seldom hurt themselves and often throw good shots. This is what you want to abandon?

I'm fine with putting. Like I said, I don't necessarily want to throw farther, just more accurately. I want to be able to hit gaps in the fairway from 75'-200' much more consistently. I can practice putting until my putter melts, it's not gonna magically improve my ability to avoid those errant throws that smack trees stupidly off the fairway.


So practice the shots you are missing. Go to a hole with a stack of discs and throw that shot repeatedly. Pick them up and do it again. Or go to a field with trees in it and create the kind of line you are having trouble with and practice it.

If you watch the players who hit those shots consistently you will see different forms among them. Form doesn't give them or you accuracy. Practice does.

Obviously there are players with form so poor it inhibits their games. Once you can throw flat and smooth with full follow through and not cause injury to yourself your form is probably pretty solid. It makes sense to experiment with small changes but wholesale changes? You didn't miss that last shot because of your arm motion or your grip (basic form), you missed that shot due to poor balance or timing, which can be fixed with practice.

Stand behind players when they need to hit precise lines. Don't watch the disc, watch them. Many times you can see poor timing or balance before they release the shot. Even before they release you can tell the only thing which will save that shot is luck.

If you do hit the RESET button, what is the chance your forearm problem flares up? Your current form likely uses a motion which causes the least problem with your tendonitis (self preservation instincts). A bad motion causes pain and we naturally try not to repeat it. Your forearm may prevent significant changes.
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Re: Hitting the reset button

Postby PMantle » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:59 am

How hard is it to throw opposite handed backhand? I've never tried it, but might be interested in starting to learn.
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Re: Hitting the reset button

Postby discmonkey42 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:00 pm

PMantle wrote:How hard is it to throw opposite handed backhand? I've never tried it, but might be interested in starting to learn.


For me it was damn near impossible. Only way I could suffer through the very significant learning curve was if I just couldn't throw with my right hand any more and was forced to throw lefty to be able to play.
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