Massive Distance

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Massive Distance

Postby klemle » Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:02 am

I am kind of confused when it comes to BIG distance. I don't mean like 450 foot distance, but Simon, David Wiggins, Avery 600+ foot distance. When I throw my big drives I try to keep them nose down so they don't climb and hyzer out on me, which I think is what I should be doing. How then, do these guys throw these huge drives so high in the air AND keep the disc flat. Here is an example of what I mean here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-29KBRCWNI. It looks like he is throwing straight into the air but then the disc remains flat and runs just like it would if he threw it only 15 feet in the air. Doesn't seem possible to me, but I must just be missing something. Another example is Simon Lizotte when he throws 485 with a mid range. He bombs it straight in the air but how does it not climb or flip on him....Can anyone help me ease my confusion??? (Not necessarily looking to do this myself, just curious)
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Re: Massive Distance

Postby JR » Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:41 pm

Imo the hardest throw is a nose level or down throw up ultra high. Nose down would be better because gravity helps and the disc is diving down.

You cannot be weight back, the wrist needs to stay down at the rip, the disc can be oriented withe rear at the innermost thumb joint. The hips need to work so bracing the plant step is needed. Pinching hard enough for a good disc pivot means the world. Carlsen measured 600' Teebird thrower to get 10% of the final speed from the wrist flick and the disc pivot while getting 40% of the spin.

Those guys are athletic. Simon is lanky with long thin arms. Avery is a power house. There are different body types that still get distance. You need to train hard for ultimate performance like in any other sport. It helps to throw when you are young so that you can train the muscles to act fast. There are two about 400' throwing 13 year old girls in Finland now.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Massive Distance

Postby Beetard » Fri May 09, 2014 3:24 pm

These guys are not throwing really high. They throw low, but the disc has so much acceleration and velocity that it generates massive lift and quickly climbs while staying nose-down.
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Re: Massive Distance

Postby JR » Sat May 10, 2014 6:54 am

Or nose level but i would say that they do throw from back low to front high in the arm movement too. They get massive height too so that they can utilize the glide of the disc and allow the wind to push the disc for longer.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Massive Distance

Postby seabas22 » Sat May 10, 2014 3:06 pm

They are throwing high. You don't want lift before the apex because that is producing massive drag, the only time in distance you want lift is after the apex. The nose is down relative to it's trajectory(up) and it's relative air flow, not the ground. Also when you trajectory upward, it is like throwing against a ceiling because the top of the disc is producing downward drag so it's not rising via lift from below the disc, it's actually the opposite as the disc is pushed downward.
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Re: Massive Distance

Postby Stringbean » Mon May 12, 2014 9:59 pm

seabas22 wrote:You don't want lift before the apex because that is producing massive drag, the only time in distance you want lift is after the apex.


Can you explain this further? Isn't the apex the peak elevation? How can the disc have lift after the apex? Or are you saying that lift is fighting gravity and thus no longer rising relative to the ground?
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Re: Massive Distance

Postby JR » Tue May 13, 2014 12:13 am

I am perplexed by what seabas meant. I say you get free lift at the beginning of the flight when the disc is level or front lower than rear as long as the disc flies so fast that the lift overpowers gravity. That does not reduce the speed to my understanding. You do want maximum glide that is lift after the apex but get enough speed at the apex front down and appropriate anhyzer relative to the hss lss nose angle and cruise speed and you are fine. The appropriate anny means max average lift while maintaining best average speed after the apex relative to how the wind drops lifts pushes or retards the disc.

In calm weather distance equals average speed times flight time. Wind effects make the angles way different in order to gain the optimum result out of those two variables.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Massive Distance

Postby seabas22 » Tue May 13, 2014 3:35 pm

Stringbean wrote:
seabas22 wrote:You don't want lift before the apex because that is producing massive drag, the only time in distance you want lift is after the apex.


Can you explain this further? Isn't the apex the peak elevation? How can the disc have lift after the apex? Or are you saying that lift is fighting gravity and thus no longer rising relative to the ground?

Correct. Before the apex you want to minimize lift while throwing high, so it's nose is down relative to it's trajectory(the apex). Lift is also drag which slows down the disc, more lift is more drag. After the apex you want the disc to glide out via lift and nose angle fighting gravity forward.
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Re: Massive Distance

Postby JR » Tue May 13, 2014 5:59 pm

Err more height is more energy potential. More speed than the cruising speed during a hyzer flip will raise the disc thanks to the glide rating overpowering the gravity. No distance record lately has been broken with a low throw. How do you define the lift that is a drag? In a rear left wind you can get the disc to fly at wind speed at the apex and if the disc is high enough at a correct nose and anhyzer angle it will accelerate going down with the wind. Depending on the wind speed of course. Conversion of the potential energy of height needs to be factored in the analysis.

If the disc rising during the hyzer to flat flip part creates drag so what? The distance record has increased by a quarter after the previous anny started record using hyzer flips. So what is so bad about lift drag?
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Massive Distance

Postby seabas22 » Tue May 13, 2014 7:44 pm

I don't think that disagrees with anything.
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Re: Massive Distance

Postby Stringbean » Wed May 14, 2014 12:42 pm

So the height generated before the apex should be the result of arm angle... as opposed to throwing flat and relying on lift to generate height. After the apex, the disc should be nose down, and the lift generated will push the disc forward rather than up. Is that correct?
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Re: Massive Distance

Postby seabas22 » Wed May 14, 2014 12:57 pm

Pretty much.
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Re: Massive Distance

Postby JR » Wed May 14, 2014 7:23 pm

Lift comes from the arm angle and throwing fast while hyzer flipping. Fast because there is more lift than gravity when the disc is above cruise speed. Hyzer flip ends i think when the disc slows down. But to which speed idk close to cruising speed probably. Hss plays a part along with spin to the timing of the end of the flip as well.

To me saying that pre apex lift increasing drag is beside the point. Tossing an anny with arm angle alone creating the apex height does not have that drag yet anny record is what under 200 m and hyzer flip 255 m. Unless one means that the drag comes from gravity which is the same for an anny. The anny can vary but not as much as the angle changes with the hyzer flip typically. The tilt away from level reduces the lift countering gravity and hyzer flips spend more time providing more closely gravity countering lift vector. Aka flattish hyzer angle.

The trouble of the term drag used alone is that it does not specify which drag. The onrushing air from the speed of the disc over land plus the wind speed or the drag of gravity opposing the rising of the disc pre apex. I have not seen data on the same thrower tossing anny vs hyzer flip vs flat regarding speed at the apex and apex height. Or spin. So concrete comparison is difficult in light of other numbers than distance.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Massive Distance

Postby seabas22 » Fri May 16, 2014 10:21 am

Drag from the airflow over the disc. There will be some lift from the disc's aerodynamic design, but too much of that lift is a momentum killer like from airbounce/nose up throwing down. Throwing to the apex is more like throwing a baseball or a simple projectile that has no flying characteristics, mostly relies on pure momentum and reducing drag. After the apex is when most of the discs start to actually fly. I believe Marc Jarvis has multiple 200 meter plus throws from anhyzer and Phil Arthur. Even on hyzer flips, guys are throwing up high with their trajectory, instead of relying on the disc to fly up there, the under stable discs may help get them a little higher, but likely less consistent as the disc flies through more angles.
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Re: Massive Distance

Postby archimedesjs » Fri May 16, 2014 10:38 am

Curious, was the Simon 485' mid-range drive on flat ground, with no wind assistance? Where did you hear about, or witness this throw?
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