The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby patdabunny » Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:18 pm

Of course, thank you for the vids. They are quite instructive.

BTW, as of now I'm leading the distance comp at just over 450'. (Pretty bad headwind we were throwing into.) I was about 25-30' further than anyone else. Plus, I'm not feeling too good today, so that held me back some as well as not practicing my form for a while as well.

Thanks again for the help and your coaching (even though it wasn't in person...it still helped greatly).
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby josser » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:15 pm

Blake_T wrote:
Blake, since your videos were full speed and low frame rate it was very hard to tell what was happening at the end of any of your pounds since you would whip it back to starting position. What I was doing and what I was picturing was happening for you was basically the same as Dave D's discussion of "steely stop" where you go from open to neutral in the hammer pound but the weight of the disc pulls your wrist closed. Then it bounces quickly back to neutral since you/me/Dave D tried to do the "steely stop". Should I be trying to actively go past neutral to closed?


by focusing on specifics of the video you are doing exactly the opposite of what the drills are supposed to do. it's all about feel and not about trying to mimic specifics. the pacing of my videos is more important than the specifics.


It took a year of effort to get my distance past 275' so you can see what kind of a (slow learning) person you are dealing with. The videos are very helpful, but I had a very specific question (wrist actively closing vs. being forced closed due to "steely stop") that I wasn't able to answer and I tried to use them to answer it instead of posting the question. Please don't let that discourage you from further videos.

Blake_T wrote:i don't see how you could do drills #1 and #3 with only letting the wrist get back to neutral. the entire natural tendency is to end with the disc below your hand... that is the miracle of gravity.


This may be an issue of my picturing the wrong thing. I just went out to my garage and hammered in a nail to make sure that I visualize that process correctly. When I hammer I lift the hammer up with my wrist roughly neutral. Then I let my wrist/hand drop a bit faster than gravity is making the hammer drop, which opens up my wrist on the way down (Or I could just start with an open wrist, but that doesn't seem to be how I do it). Then I snap my wrist from open to neutral which brings the hammer head down into the hammer with my wrist having very little change in height during this wrist snap. At no point in this process do I actively close my wrist, although it is incidentally closed just a bit when my hand recoils back up a bit while the hammer drives the nail in a bit.

This process is what I was trying to duplicate in your drills and I hope is helpful feedback for where certain folks can go wrong thinking that they are doing it correctly. I will have to VERY CAREFULLY re-read and rework through them and sort out the differences.

"The hammer pound is the throw" is working for forehand, but the problem is that my hammer pound is not yet working well.

"The hammer pound is the throw" is barely working for backhand. For backhand I think it is so similar to the pen toss that I am having trouble letting go of that.


i think your notion of when/where the disc releases must be off by like a foot in either direction. e.g. you don't have a nail you are pounding with the hammer.

for sidearm it should be slightly beyond the left side of your body (or right side if yer lefty). for backhand it's like 1-2' beyond the right side of your body. if your shoulders are rotating more than a tiny bit you are doing it wrong.[/quote][/quote]

When you are discussing where the disc releases, do you mean where the leading edge of the disc is when it comes out or where my hand is when it comes out? If it is your hand, then I am way off on forehand but I think I have it right for backhand. If it is the leading edge of the disc, then I have it right for forehand, but am going way to far out for backhand.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby keltik » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:26 pm

oh man I was waiting for that lamp to eat it. man was I mildly disappointed. the speed of the videos is absolutely appropriate. it is an accurate depiction of the drills. you still cleverly hid yourself from the world. lulz.

thanks again for everything.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Blake_T » Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:16 pm

i was being mostly sarcastic with the "thanks for the videos thing" but the thanks is much appreciated. :)

It took a year of effort to get my distance past 275' so you can see what kind of a (slow learning) person you are dealing with. The videos are very helpful, but I had a very specific question (wrist actively closing vs. being forced closed due to "steely stop") that I wasn't able to answer and I tried to use them to answer it instead of posting the question. Please don't let that discourage you from further videos.


i can break down and analyze specific positions into the ground... and i've tried to get away from doing that or needing to do that with teaching. i'm trying to get you to use the drills to feel it... what you will see is that the wrist motions are INITIATED naturally, by shifting the disc's weight but they are COMPLETED if you focus on the purpose of the drills. it is conscious, but it's not like you consciously close the wrist. if you consciously pound the hammer, the wrist will follow-suit as it should.

This may be an issue of my picturing the wrong thing. I just went out to my garage and hammered in a nail to make sure that I visualize that process correctly. When I hammer I lift the hammer up with my wrist roughly neutral. Then I let my wrist/hand drop a bit faster than gravity is making the hammer drop, which opens up my wrist on the way down (Or I could just start with an open wrist, but that doesn't seem to be how I do it). Then I snap my wrist from open to neutral which brings the hammer head down into the hammer with my wrist having very little change in height during this wrist snap. At no point in this process do I actively close my wrist, although it is incidentally closed just a bit when my hand recoils back up a bit while the hammer drives the nail in a bit.


the thing that doesn't quite work is that the orientation of the hand is 90 degrees off when you actually pound a hammer. with this drill the disc plane should be parallel to the hinge of the wrist. when you actually swing a hammer, neutral is as far as the wrist will bend because it is joint and not a socket.

When you are discussing where the disc releases, do you mean where the leading edge of the disc is when it comes out or where my hand is when it comes out? If it is your hand, then I am way off on forehand but I think I have it right for backhand. If it is the leading edge of the disc, then I have it right for forehand, but am going way to far out for backhand.


it's all truly a motion flow so what you are gunning for are approximations when you try to find the release point. basically, it doesn't sound like you are actually getting the hammer pound feel from the drills. if you look at my videos of it, i couldn't have stopped my wrist at neutral if i had tried to. you aren't getting the disc's weight shift.

the force of the disc coming around is too strong to stop at neutral.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby josser » Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:19 pm

Blake_T wrote:Many helpful and insightful things.


Me: Thanks Blake, I have lots of work to do.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby josser » Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:53 am

I just spent some time working on just drills #1 and #3. After watching the video I realized that one of my problems was that I was trying to do these drills with my elbow close to my side instead of out in front of me like in Blake's video. Once I switched to my elbow out in front of me I noticed the disc was whipping around a lot quicker at the pounding point.

I feel like I am closer than yesterday, but still don't quite have it. There is definately a great difference in the feel between trying to close my wrist too early and trying to close it around the correct time.

I am left with a quick clarification question.

The quick snap around of the disc at the bottom should feel VERY strong even though your arm is basically relaxed.


Aren't I supposed to be gripping hard and closing my wrist at that point? Do you just mean that the rest of my arm is basically relaxed?
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Taotefling » Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:33 pm

Blake_T wrote:Basically, this is an easy method to a 250'+ OAT-free sidearm ...


Thanks much to Blake, Beato, Bradley et al for the knowledge being shared here. And thanks to USAnarchy, too, for his posts recapping what he learned from Blake and addt'l input. I read USAnarchy's post on Friday (before he added Blake's edits) and did some practice time Friday and Saturday. I didn't catch lightning in a bottle yet (realizing I need a lot more practice time) but would appreciate input on a couple noob questions.

1. My stash of discs is made up mainly of Wizards, Sharks, and Sabres. I've also seen a lot of posts suggesting guys practice and learn how to get the most of their putters. Are any of these discs better/worse for practicing the FH hammer throw? Say should I try to get this down with a Wizard before moving up to a longer disc?

2. For the "250'+ OAT-free sidearm," would that be with a fairway driver or something similar? Are the distance drivers generally supposed to be used by guys getting over 250'?

3. I've got cr@ppy inconsistency with the lines I throw. Working on the FH, about a third of throws went straight, a third started left and continued turning that way, and a third climbed high to the right, stalled, and crashed (nose up, right?). At my best, I was getting a little over 200' with my Sabres. Any suggestions on the type of flight should I be looking for with this drill? Should I try to consistently try for one type of flight (e.g., anhyzer? flat? something else?) before learning to hit different lines?

thanks much!
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Blake_T » Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:26 pm

I feel like I am closer than yesterday, but still don't quite have it. There is definately a great difference in the feel between trying to close my wrist too early and trying to close it around the correct time.


that's where the fake grip comes in. it trains you to time it. if you don't have it down revert to drills 1 and 2.

Aren't I supposed to be gripping hard and closing my wrist at that point? Do you just mean that the rest of my arm is basically relaxed?


check out youtube for drills on how to throw a jab in boxing. and work more with the fake grip. your grip has to tighten the closer you get to the rip but this should happen fairly naturally.


1. My stash of discs is made up mainly of Wizards, Sharks, and Sabres. I've also seen a lot of posts suggesting guys practice and learn how to get the most of their putters. Are any of these discs better/worse for practicing the FH hammer throw? Say should I try to get this down with a Wizard before moving up to a longer disc?


try it with anything/everything. it's so different from how most people throw sidearm that it opens up lots of possibilities for you to explore.

2. For the "250'+ OAT-free sidearm," would that be with a fairway driver or something similar? Are the distance drivers generally supposed to be used by guys getting over 250'?


see previous reply.

3. I've got cr@ppy inconsistency with the lines I throw. Working on the FH, about a third of throws went straight, a third started left and continued turning that way, and a third climbed high to the right, stalled, and crashed (nose up, right?). At my best, I was getting a little over 200' with my Sabres. Any suggestions on the type of flight should I be looking for with this drill? Should I try to consistently try for one type of flight (e.g., anhyzer? flat? something else?) before learning to hit different lines?


mix it up but focus at times. e.g. 20 flat throws. 20 hyzer throws. 20 anhyzer throws, etc.

you are better off getting comfortable with all shots and not just 1, but if you just throw at random it won't benefit you either.

when you flipped em left you snapped it early. when they skied right you didn't snap em early enough. focus on the hammer pound and not on throwing it.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby HuntingtonHyzer » Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:04 pm

Will give a better review tomorrow but would just like to say that using the hammer pound, I went from a wobbly 150 ft. forehand to a solid 275 controlled forehand in less than a day.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby USAnarchy » Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:22 pm

Blake, I really have to thank you for the tip on how to aim using the "Pound The Hammer" motion.

NO KIDDING when I say that I have shot 2 of the most consistent rounds in my life over the past two days with my Accuracy being dead on.

I have been practicing a course for a tournament next Sunday, and so far, on Saturday, I almost aced 3 holes and had 7 birdies, and then today I almost aced 2 different holes with one hitting the side of the basket, and with 7 birdies.

Anytime that my shots were not on line or on target, I did not get the "Feel" of "Pounding The Hammer".

P.S. "Pounding The Hammer" works really well for jump putts too!


On a side note, so far the few people that I have explained the concepts too have been just astounded at the sheer simplicity. One of the guys is a roofer, so he took to this like a fish to water. He went from no sidearm to 300 feet easy. Only reason they didnt go further is that he was almost throwing them right into the ground. Once i got him centered over is left foot on his final plant he was putting wraiths out 350. Dumb ass went on to ace his first sidearm hole today. :cry: I dont have a sidearm ace yet :cry:

I also got him throwing his backhand out almost 400 but he kept locking out his hips so everything was hyzering. Its going to take him doing some reps of planting his foot a little more on line so he can get his hips clear enough to open.

But your right, I can get them half hitting the backhand pretty good but I cant seem to tie that final bits together.

But thanks again for the accuracy bit. That right there is pure gold son!
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby matchu » Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:56 pm

it works great Blake! What with a five to ten minute phone call? I don't throw many forehands but the exercise works hammer in what you know. hee hee get the reference? It is nice to get to the hit without effort or heavy concentration. I threw further and much more consistent on some of the worst tee boxes ever. I had the knowledge of what to do, it has been on this here website for years, but the drill makes it second nature.

but.... I tried to explain this to someone and sometimes you cant fix what doesn't accept it is broken. I had an engineer explain that you can build it idiot proof, they'll just build a better idiot. (humans are strange)
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby josser » Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:14 am

Blake_T wrote:The quick snap around of the disc at the bottom should feel VERY strong even though your arm is basically relaxed. The quick snap around of the disc at the bottom should feel VERY strong even though your arm is basically relaxed.
Aren't I supposed to be gripping hard and closing my wrist at that point? Do you just mean that the rest of my arm is basically relaxed?
Blake_T wrote:check out youtube for drills on how to throw a jab in boxing. and work more with the fake grip. your grip has to tighten the closer you get to the rip but this should happen fairly naturally.




I watched videos for close to half an hour and nobody talked about your arm being relaxed. :(

I avoided the expert village videos completely since I know the quality of the disc golf videos on there! There were a couple of the videos (which seemed like the better ones) that emphasized that the jab was coming from the shoulder and not from the elbow. I can see how this is a "relaxed arm" sort of idea. I'm still not translating this very well to pounding the hammer, however...

I tried to do a few hammer pounds with my arm intentionally tensed as much as possible. Wow this kills everything: timing, power. I get, from doing this, the idea that the arm is basically relaxed.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby patdabunny » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:45 am

I don't know if it's just me or my arm being tensed (it doesn't feel like it) but I can't get the "recoil" like you do in the vids, blake. Has that been a problem with others? Is it that I"m strongarming it?
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Segovia » Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:58 am

After working for a bit on these after playing with Dan a few weeks ago I'm already seeing some substantial improvements. I managed to get a p-pd out to 460-480' with a slight tailwind yesterday on a 20-25' apex. Accuracy is definitely also improving quite a bit. Great stuff Blake!
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Taotefling » Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:18 pm

Blake - Thanks much for your reply to my post. Appreciate your input. Was really surprised with the speed that you (assume it's you in the videos) were moving, but I was able to get pretty close when I tried to keep up.

patdabunny wrote:I don't know if it's just me or my arm being tensed (it doesn't feel like it) but I can't get the "recoil" like you do in the vids, blake. Has that been a problem with others? Is it that I"m strongarming it?


FWIW, I'm not getting the recoil either. At least not yet.
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