The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Information, Questions, Discussion about Throwing Mechanics and Technique

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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby USAnarchy » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:41 am

Jeronimo wrote:Why on earth would you want a single finger as the crux of all your snap?


Because of physics? If i was to slow your throw down and focus the video in on your grip, the disc should rip off of your hand at a single point. I think you might want to do a refresher: http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/articles/gripittoripit.shtml#ripvslock

Quote From Article: The primary focus of the grip should be to achieve the greatest amount of force on the disc at the rip point. The rip occurs when the disc overpowers the rip finger and forces its way out of the hand. Since acceleration and velocity pull the disc out of the hand, the stronger your rip point, the greater force will be applied to the disc as it launches from the hand. The distance potential available here is also closely related to snap and follow through, but all things equal, more rip force will always translate into more distance than less rip force.

[EDIT: Were you maybe misunderstanding what JHern was talking about? When he talked about just using the 2 fingers, it was to build up the "Feel" of what the pivot on those fingers is like.]

Jeronimo wrote:I have no doubt at this point that I fully understand the concept of "snap". I am just still at the point where my body doesn't inherently "know" how to reproduce it.


Is that like understanding Calculus but not knowing how solve math problems? If you are using the "Pound The Hammer" techniques and you are getting the "Feel" then you should not have issues with snap unless you really didnt perform the technique or due to grip slip, and if the latter is the case then you need to continue working with the techniques, but change your grip to something that feel likes its super solid grip.

[Blake; could you confirm/deny/clarify this? The only thing i can think of that would hinder the "Hammer Pound" would be grip slippage, assuming that someone is really "Pounding The Hammer" properly.]

That is the sheer genius of using a concept built on "Feel" versus thinking through the whole process technique by technique and step by step. Its much easier now that you should "Feel" a certain sensation when throwing, versus scratching your head wondering what part of your laundry list of steps to take broke down. What would you rather do? Count down a list like your launching the Space Shuttle down at NASA while trying to do a run up, or concetrate on just "Pounding The Hammer"? When you "Pound The Hammer" your body automatically causes all those things you use to think about to happen automatically in order for you to get the sensation or "Feel" of the "Hammer Pound". I know this is a very esoteric idea but as you think it, your body does it. If i think of a global idea such as the "Hammer Pound" then my body makes it happen. If i think pivot, weight shift, pull close, etc etc etc, i have just overloaded my brain, and more than likely forgotten something, and by that point im off line or caused some other problem to occur.

If you dont "Feel" it, your not doing it right. Work on building up muscle memory via repetition of what the "Feel" is. Trust me. I have only been using this thing for maybe a week total, and its almost second nature at this point. That and Im so stoked for what its done with my accuracy and consistency, that I dont want to do anything but play disc golf and "Feel" that sensation so I can watch my discs just bomb. Trust me, its addicting. When you finally have your AH-HA moment, im sure you will be MIA from this site for a few days or at least until you want to come back and brag.

Jeronimo wrote:The biggest concept helper was pre-empting my grip. Gripping hard before the momentum of the disc was too much for my weak fingers to respond to. i.e. "slip"


You should be gripping the disc very loosely up until the very last moment. You only grip the disc as hard as needed to keep it from falling out of your hand. You can find the timing needed for this by doing the over hand hammer pound using the fake grip. When you "Feel" the disc trying to rip out of that grip, that is when you tighten your grip as hard as you can. Once you have the "Feel" of that, move over to doing the backhand hammer pound using the fake grip.

Once you get that "Feel" down, change over to your backhand grip and rinse and repeat until it bleeds (an exaggeration, but you must "Pound" these techniques into yourself until they become second nature.)
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Jeronimo » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:02 pm

You are by far the most annoying tool on these boards these days. You have taken that title from me, congrats.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby USAnarchy » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:27 pm

Jeronimo wrote:You are by far the most annoying tool on these boards these days. You have taken that title from me, congrats.


I apologize if I come off as a tool as that was not my attention. I am a very direct and to the point kind of person. I merely thought that you may want to expand your knowledge as oppose to stay "wondering" why you dont seem to perform with the knowledge you claim to have.

So now, here i sit, the Crown of Tool weighing heavy on my head. What shall i do with this new found kingdomship? Will the peasants approve?

on a side note, i could be a tool and make a comment about your signature. But now that i'm royalty, those kinds of things are beneath me. :wink:
Accuracy is Slow. Slow is Smooth. Smooth is Fast. Fast is Far.
The Less Effort, The Faster and More Powerful You Will Be - Bruce Lee
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Jeronimo » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:34 pm

I take it back, I'm still king Tool. I will wear that crown till this board closes.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby USAnarchy » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:42 pm

AND THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN!

My neck muscles were getting tired from trying to sling all that gold and platinum anyway.

I think I will just stick to wearing my grillz

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The one with the basket and disc on it come in next week.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby masterbeato » Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:05 pm

Mr. and Mrs. Tool :lol:
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby USAnarchy » Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:24 pm

Only if dinner is on the table and waiting when i get in from the disc golf course :wink:
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby JHern » Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:07 pm

USAnarchy wrote:
Jeronimo wrote:Why on earth would you want a single finger as the crux of all your snap?

Because of physics?


That's right. How the hell can the disc pivot freely and sling off more than 1-2 finger tips? It would be like putting square wheels on your car! I cheat and use both my index and middle finger tips, but it seems to work so long as I don't bring the disc in with too much velocity to hold on while it pivots.

One other thing to add to my previous...I haven't ever really felt the bouncing off the palm thing. I would love to. Maybe that is the difference between hitting it half-way and all-the-way?
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby USAnarchy » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:17 pm

i like how my rhetorical "because of physics?" became a question!

J, have you tried to make your middle finger as more of a lock point instead of a pivot? That would help you clear your finger out of the way for your primary pivot point, the index finger. It might help with the velocity limitations as well.

As far as the palm thing, try using 70/30 grip pressure. For your grip throughout the throw, right up until the last second keep it loose, but apply 70% of the grip pressure with your pinky and ring finger and the other 30% with your middle and index fingers. Once you are about to go into the hit, at the last possible second go 100% with everything you have.

Its something that Im just starting to get the hang of. When I do it right, i can feel the disc trying to inch away off the pinky and ring finger right as I grip down as hard as I can, I feel the disc pull back into my palm and then eject back off of it.

I really need to get out in the field some and work on this, but I got side tracked with the whole super sekret teknique and all the benefits it brought to my game. Now if I can only get all these crazy ideas and theories Blake puts in my head into practice.... i like the crazy ideas though. makes me think, and when i get to thinking, i usually figure new stuff out.
Accuracy is Slow. Slow is Smooth. Smooth is Fast. Fast is Far.
The Less Effort, The Faster and More Powerful You Will Be - Bruce Lee
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby cmlasley » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:33 pm

Subscribed. Thanks, Blake.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Jeronimo » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:29 pm

JHern wrote:
USAnarchy wrote:
Jeronimo wrote:Why on earth would you want a single finger as the crux of all your snap?

Because of physics?


That's right. How the hell can the disc pivot freely and sling off more than 1-2 finger tips? It would be like putting square wheels on your car! I cheat and use both my index and middle finger tips, but it seems to work so long as I don't bring the disc in with too much velocity to hold on while it pivots.

One other thing to add to my previous...I haven't ever really felt the bouncing off the palm thing. I would love to. Maybe that is the difference between hitting it half-way and all-the-way?


I'm confused, because the middle and ring fingers are stacked on the pinky finger it's actually only one single point of contact with the disc. What you do with both the index and middle pads touching the rim is actually what I myself do. I still insist you're crazy (not you specifically JHern) if you think your index finger is resisting that much torque all by its lonesome. Have you ever posted a vid JHern? I'd be interested to see where you're at. One of these days I'll have to get around to posting one of my own.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Blake_T » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:56 pm

the act of throwing has separate lock and rip points. hence, the description of "lock fingers" and "rip fingers".

there are grips that isolate this to one single point, such as a stack grip where the only finger on the rim is the index finger and others stacked on top of it.

the lock and rip fingers are responsible for holding onto the disc through the in motion.

the out motion begins as the lock fingers are leaving and finishes with just the rip finger.

what the index finger does is actually quite subtle but it's hugely important.

try spinning a plate or a bowl on a table by tugging (or oppositely, try pushing it too) at the edge in a rotational manner. this will give you an idea of the role of the index finger in snap. if you wanted to "twirl" the bowl or plate really hard, you'd probably grab it in your palm and do some kind of "flip" motion to get it spinning as fast as possible, but the final motion will be the same as if you are just trying to get it to spin gently. basically it's a tug of the index finger, the primary difference being that in a throw it's when the wrist extends and if you are spinning the plate it's probably with the wrist contracting.

the "out motion" that brad has talked about and why this set of drills remains incomplete can be felt completely if you throw an aerobie ring gripped only between the index and thumb.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Blake_T » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:57 pm

also, the fork grip with the ring and middle fingers covering the pinky isolates the lock down to one point while still having good strength. the idea is that a single lock point will leave more consistently and cleanly than 3 lock points.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby Jeronimo » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:36 pm

Blake_T wrote:the act of throwing has separate lock and rip points. hence, the description of "lock fingers" and "rip fingers".

there are grips that isolate this to one single point, such as a stack grip where the only finger on the rim is the index finger and others stacked on top of it.

the lock and rip fingers are responsible for holding onto the disc through the in motion.

the out motion begins as the lock fingers are leaving and finishes with just the rip finger.

what the index finger does is actually quite subtle but it's hugely important.

try spinning a plate or a bowl on a table by tugging (or oppositely, try pushing it too) at the edge in a rotational manner. this will give you an idea of the role of the index finger in snap. if you wanted to "twirl" the bowl or plate really hard, you'd probably grab it in your palm and do some kind of "flip" motion to get it spinning as fast as possible, but the final motion will be the same as if you are just trying to get it to spin gently. basically it's a tug of the index finger, the primary difference being that in a throw it's when the wrist extends and if you are spinning the plate it's probably with the wrist contracting.

the "out motion" that brad has talked about and why this set of drills remains incomplete can be felt completely if you throw an aerobie ring gripped only between the index and thumb.


IF this is in fact true (I am not sure I'm convinced, yes I know we've gone through this before), the strength of your index finger is HUGELY important. I need to think about this more. My intuition wants to tell me that the index finger is more of a guide for the ejection of the disc from your "lock" than it is an extra fulcrum for the actual explosion of the disc out of the hand. It just does not seem possible to claim that the index finger can bear that kind of load. I'm going to go muddle this over and grumble in my corner now.
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Re: The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

Postby masterbeato » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:04 pm

you can not get a very strong rip on any other finger because the disc pivots around a lot harder around the index finger then any other.

you shall be convinced since that is what i feel when i throw, and it is off the pad of my index finger. i have proof that it is because i have a callus there.

also, that is where all of the pinch power is (thumb pressure).
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