Penalty? Relief?

[JTdisc]

After a tee shot my disc parks itself under a large bush, with the disc directly in front of the trunk of the bush on the line of play.

The size of the bush prevented me from taking a legal stance within 30 cm of the disc/marker.

Can I get relief behind the bush without penalty as per 803.04.E? "If a large solid obstacle prevents a player from taking a legal stance within 30 cm directly behind the marker disc, the player shall take his stance immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play." Or does this fall under optional relief 803.05.C with a one throw penalty?

When I think of a solid obstacle, I think of things like a large rock, but this bush was so large and dense (does that count as a solid obstacle?) there was no way I could manage to get a contact point behind the marker within 30 cm.

[Chuck Kennedy]

The "solid object(s)" are the main stalks/trunks coming out of the ground, not the bushy parts of the bush. If you take solid object relief, your mark is the stalk that was preventing you from taking a stance in front of it. You have to place your foot within 30cm behind that stalk lying on the ground if necessary to disturb the bush the least amount, that is if you do not want to take more relief back from the stalk but then get a penalty.

[curt]

[quote]You have to place your foot within 30cm behind that stalk lying on the ground if necessary to disturb the bush the least amount[\quote]

Chuck,

This sounds misleading (or inconsistent with what I think I've heard you say about that part of the rulebook before. It sounds like you're saying a player is required to take the stance that disturbs the bush the least. I thought players were allowed to take whatever stance they wanted, but had to do so in the way that disturbed the bush the least.

For example, in this scenario, the marker would go directly behind the bush's trunk, but the player would be allowed to stand in the bush (if possible), but not be required to lay down simply because standing would disturb the bush.

[Chuck Kennedy]

First, when you take solid object relief, you do not use a marker. The object itself becomes your marker. (Seems odd to me but that's how it's written.) With regard to disturbing the bush, it's a murky judgment call. If the bush is large and thick enough that you would be completely surrounded by branches if you tried to stand at the mark, you should probably lie on the ground or on one knee and reach your foot in. It's a judgment call that the RC really doesn't provide good guidance, but I'm not sure it's possible to fully write-up what's acceptable for "least movement" in all cases. Might be worth doing a video.

[JTdisc]

In this particular instance, there was no way to kneel or squat down and extend a leg and still remain the least bit upright. This tree/bush was at least 12' in diameter. I suppose there is a chance I could have lain down flat on my back, with a heel touching down 30cm behind the tree trunk (considering the trunk to be the "solid obstacle") and then barely scuffed a disc along the ground a few feet. In this particular instance, I just took a one throw penalty and threw from a spot several feet back along the line of play.

The crux of the question really was "does a dense shrub/bush/tree count as a solid obstacle" and it sounds like the opinion is "No, it doesn't."

[martinb]

The crux of the question really was "does a dense shrub/bush/tree count as a solid obstacle" and it sounds like the opinion is "No, it doesn't."

no it doesnt, your in jail. call your mom.

[Pwingles]

Dense as in thick foliage doesnt mean solid, so no it wouldnt be considered a solid object.